I have been hearing this for 15+ years and it can always be improved, but that's another fly in the ointment. Whatever the solution is has to be fair to the majority. Let's not forget the show committees that struggles to put on a show. I train my own ranch raised horses and win here and there. But to be honest the horse has seldom been the culprit of a poor showing. The better competition has made me a better horseman and isn't that the ultimate objective?

R.S.D.

Thank you Karen! I believe the Non-Pro divisions are fine as is. I am also tired of the complainers who look for excuses for what they feel is their lack of success. This exhibitor has more money, this one's daddy is a trainer, etc.

Let's face it, this is an expensive sport both monetarily, and in the time required to become a good rider. To be successful (on a budget or not), work hard on your riding, look for "smart" buys, and don't burn your horse out in one season. As to the issue of trainers' families--although some do abuse the non-pro system, there are those of us out there who play by the rules. As a horse trainer's wife, believe me that getting help from the trainer is not "free" or "on demand". I work an outside job 50+ hours a week and have to balance family time with riding just like any other non-pro. No, I don't pay a monthly training bill, but I'm also responsible for the upkeep of our 50 acre farm, including cleaning 15-20 stalls a day, and looking after our broodmares and babies, as well as the farm's marketing, accounting, etc. In addition, I'm very active in my NRHA affiliate. Which often leaves me less time to ride than the "average" non pro. And just because I'm free to ride, doesn't mean my husband is available to help me. He has customers and their horses to work with.

Additionally, my personal horse is usually a colt we've raised or a horse we've bought unfinished; consequently, I sit out from a lot of shows because my horse isn't ready to go. And I probably do 90% of the riding on my own horse (much of that without instruction), which means my horse's progress is much slower than the customers' horses.

Does the Sire and Dam program work to my advantage--sure! But we had to invest in a very nice stud to make having a breeding program worthwhile, and we spend much time and money on promoting the stallion and producing nice colts. Raising babies isn't necessarily the cheap way to get a futurity prospect!

Am I the "average" trainer's spouse? I don't know. Does the Non Pro Committee need to take a closer look at this group of people on an on-going basis, to be sure they continue to follow the rules? Definitely. Those of us that follow the rules have nothing to fear--those that don't, deserve to be caught.

Just don't be fooled into thinking that all trainers' families live on Easy Street, just up the road from Victory Circle!

Amy Caple

I've grown weary of those who continue to complain about trainers wives, girlfriends, children, etc. competing in the non-pro division. As someone who fits into NONE of these categories, works a full time job and a part-time job and has had a number of successes in the NRHA show pen as a Non Pro, I take offense to these people who feel that just because you are a successful you should be penalized by the revocation of your Non Pro card.

I've worked very hard over the years to develop as a horseman and showman on a shoe-string budget and have worked my way through NRHA's Rookie, LNP and NP divisions. I've had the privilege to own some very nice horses, and I've also owned a few that I could have done without.

Over my nine years of involvement with NRHA, the organization has continually studied the Non Pro division and painstakingly worked to ensure that those people competing in that division belong there. There are an incredible number of divisions to attract Non Pro's of all riding skills and levels as well as competitions at a local, regional, national and international level.

I find those who with hold their name in such a forum part of the problem and not the solution. If the conditions they speak of truly do exist, they have a resource in NRHA's Non Pro Committee where they can voice their opinions and have action taken.

Be part of the solution!

Karen Shedlauskas

I fail to see how many people can be against the Non-Pro system. I have been reining for a year and showing for 7 to 8 months. I am also a Non-Pro, Rookie and Youth. People have complained about trainers being Non-Pros and such. If you are disliking what they are doing, why exactly are you training with them? Also, if you win more than $100 dollars, you still have the whole year to show in Rookie. Now don't get me wrong, I think that the money amount should be upped because the payback is getting larger, but, quite frankly, isn't it making the system fairer? For example, if someone won a Rookie class and the money put them over the top (say they already had $50), then why aren't they ready to move on? If the amount is too high, than major winners can enter the class. As for the spouse, sibling, daughter/son junk, if you're good, you'll challenge them! I am competing against trainer's daughters and sons, etc. and I am usually close to their scores. People, it is not impossible. All that is needed is perseverance. And they do juggle things in their lives. If you talk to them, you'll find out that they want to do sports and have social lives, but they don't have time because they have to help out! Oh, and by the way, if you really want to win, you're going to have to sacrifice going to movies a lot.

Miss. Vicki, I hope you at least had a thought flit through your mind about the NCHA Amateur definition, that barely anyone would be able to compete. The most successful people who train their own horses at least get advice and do some training with pros. It is not impossible to get great quality horses. I found one easy. All you have to do is have an experienced trainer to help, plus you have to realize you can't get a world champ in the classifieds for 500 bucks. Mr. Ochoa...have you ever trained with a trainer? I do, and let me tell you, the help isn't free, the transportation isn't free, it's not in my backyard, it's more like an hour away and the entry fees still cost the same. I know many people who can testify to this. If this is what trainers actually do with my clients, by all means, tell me! Maybe I'm getting jipped! (Oh, and those world class studs are still at world class fees...) Also, just because someone wins a class in the Futurity or Derby does not make them pros. I know someone who won in the Derby and she's still marking 69s and 69.5s. Non-Pros are very capable of beating youth. In fact, 90% of the time, the Limited and Intermediate and Non-Pro classes are won by adults. If you keep losing, keep improving. And, by the way, sore losers are the worst people to be around.

Chris
(Who has never placed above a 3rd in AQHA and NRHA shows)

At the present time, with the new eligibility methods, I believe that the non-pro reiner does have a good place to show. We have separated the category II earnings out for the category II shows. Therefore, in both the aged events, and the regular shows we have created as "level a playing field" as possible.

Kim W. Sloan

It seems pretty fair to me, but I haven't ridden in years, and years ago I rode in AQHA, not NRHA reining.

Val Eaves

How many categories do you need???

Gary Webb

This has been a controversial issue for years. I showed horses for years in the Non-pro and won consistently but was constantly disgusted with how often and how far the definition of Non-pro was stretched.It's ludicrous!

You cannot tell me that a "non-pro" that grows up in a horse-training family, shows in practically every show in the U.S., "owns" all of the horses he/she shows (anywhere from 6-15 horses at a time), and goes on to marry into a horse training family, has never been paid to ride, show, or work with horses. Unfortunately, the non-pro rule is not and has never been strictly enforced, especially with big-name trainers.

It is definitely time for NRHA to crack down and also to create a new division, such as the amateur division in the NCHA. If NRHA claims to be growing so much, it's time for them to grow up and quit turning a blind eye to what's really going on in the non-pro division. Let's solve this dilemma once and for all and quit catering to the big names that think they are "above the law".

Enough already.

Liz Weller

In response to Chris (Who has never placed above a 3rd in AQHA and NRHA shows)

It isn't Miss Vicki, IT IS Mrs. Vicki. Please read my comment more clearly. If you haven't noticed lately, the NCHA is over-whelmed with Amateur, and Non Pro competitors. What I was trying to make clear is that the NCHA went through these painful issues and adopted a solution to differentiate between the Amateur and Non Pro riders.

I'm not sure why you are going on about expensive horses???? I am a breeder of top quality horses that are above average prices. Even though I am a breeder, I am not taking money for training. I would still qualify for Amateur and Non Pro.

I am not saying the the NCHA rule is a fix for the overall problem. Let's face it, we can never satisfy everyone. There isn't that much of a problem to begin with. I support the NRHA, have bred horses through the Sire and Dam program, have a 3 yr old going to the futurity this year and 2 next year. As Karen said...... be a part of a solution!!! Maybe if we could all give suggestions, a better road would be paved. Evolving into a better run program is always painful, but not necessarily a bad thing. Let's work together and quit the insults.

By the way, this forum is great.

Thanks,

Vicki
Katy, Texas

I think the current non pro rules and class definition are the best in the industry today. With the exception of the professional turning to non professional rule. The money limit should be much lower. It takes a lot to win $100,000 in the professional ranks. I think it should be $25,000 or less. With the money involved it is very appealing to drop down.

Take our friends at the NRCHA their non-pro aged events have been DOMINATED by pros turned non-pro...How many hundreds of thousands non pro purse monies have been taken by these so call non pros, who were viable competitive pros, with the resources to wait out the 5 yr rule. And how long will it take the non pro competitors (aged event) to say I'm not going to put up my $2500 in entries just to win 3rd place or less? We shouldn't wait until this happens to us too! We need to voice our opinion by writing to our board of directors.

Nancy

My thinking on non-pro status has to do with the fact that we have lost a couple of riding instructors in our area due to their wish to compete as non-pros. This couple used to teach children basic horsemanship. However, when we recently contacted them to arrange lessons for our young daughters, we discovered they have gone out of business. They say they don't have the means to compete against the pros in reining and so have opted to pursue non-pro status. This is a loss not only to us but to the many children who learned their love and respect of horses from these fine people. My wife and I wonder how many other youngsters are now taking ice skating or dance lessons instead of riding horses simply because no instruction is available to them?

B. Wilkerson

Cudos to Jim, Vicki, Sam, and Carlos..I agree 100% and so there is no need to re-write it all again. As a non-pro competitor, as well as a limited NP, I feel I cannot compete against the trainer's wives, daughters, sons and family members. There should be a cap on Non-pro earnings and another area that we could show in so it would be fair. No one will ever convince me there isn't underhanded deals going on at the "big" barns where self declared "Non-pros" are being paid. We need to "police" ourselves but how many people are willing to come forward and tell the truth and/or have PROOF that this is happening. You risk being blackballed by the industry as well as being labeled a "rat". It's the big barns that would be affected. They are in control. I don't know many people that would speak out. Do you?

Jeannie Webb

One point I find interesting, and I must admit, I am not sure of the changes to the rulings, is the issue of percentage ownership of a horse for a nonpro. For example, I know previously a nonpro or immediate family must be at least a 50% owner in a horse for them to show the horse in the nonpro category. This is fine. But what about ownership in a corporation that owns the horse. There are many business people who are savvy to the use of corporations with their horses to protect other assets they may have accumulated in their life. I feel the 50% ownership rule should apply here as well. I believe I read where the nonpro will be required to have 100% ownership of the corporation and that will defeat the purpose of the corporation, especially in states like Nevada. Use of the 50% rule either by personal ownership or corporate ownership, is one way to help those nonpros who don't have the same resources that the familial-nonpros have. And it is something that we can all do to protect ourselves financially.

Name withheld by request

The rookie class should be just that, a “rookie” class. Non pro riders competing in their “first” year should be the only riders allowed to enter this class. There should also be a youth rookie class and a ladies rookie class.

There would be many more non pro riders if the non pro class had a “level playing field.” But it is far from that. The non pro class should be what is professed as, a class of non professional horse people.

As it stands, non pro riders must compete with riders who belong to, work for, ride for, get paid by, and ride with, professional horse people. These “non pro” riders also have access to horses that only professional horse operations have access to. They get professional help that is not offered to other non pros.The cost of competing is substantially lower for these people than that of other non pros because

1) the training help is usually free,
2) the training help is in their back yard,
3) their cost to breed to world class horses is minimal if not free,
4) their entry fees are a fraction of the normal fees (ie. The stallion owner ear marking a Sire and Dam breeding which enables the non pro to enter the Futurity and both Derbies at a fraction of the normal cost),
5) traveling costs are shared with or picked up by the professional horse operation,
6) the cost of competing is used to reduce the tax liability of the professional horse operation which in effect allows uncle sam to pay for a portion of the entry fees, and the list goes on.

In addition to excluding professionals from the non pro class there should also be a cap on the money earned by a non pro. If the non pro exceeds that cap he/she must forego the non pro status and enter the professional ranks. There should also be an “Amateur” class where non pros who have trained their own horses can compete in. Non pros are grossly under represented in the NRHA. Only when the playing field is leveled will more non pros put forth the effort and dollars to enter and compete in reining horse shows. It is the unleveled playing field that makes the non pros slow to enter reining horse competitions and quick to leave and never come back.

Carlos Ochoa

I'm still in the learning stages, but I did observe one thing that bothers me. I've been doing internships with different trainers and leaned that they ride in the non-pro classes. I later learned that what they do is have someone else take the monies they get for training horses so they can continue to show in the non-pro. I always thought one was not supposed to take money for training outside horses if they were non-pro. I'm pretty sure this is correct because I was asked not to say anything or they would lose their non-pro status. This relates to several folks I've been to.

Thank you,
Sam

I have enjoyed competing in the Nonpro events over the past few years and very much support the program. I do however recognize that there is much room for improvement in the area of determining actual eligibility. I would support the recent position taken by NCHA that really cracks down on those who are beating the system. Ultimately, it is up to the nonpros to police themselves and the NRHA Board needs to be willing to take action on misconduct by its members.

Happy trails,
Marcia Tetterton

I have often wondered how the non-pro system could be improved. I have not been able to come up with any wondrous solutions to my concerns so somewhat reluctantly express them, but perhaps members out there have. I feel that some further delineations need to be made. For instance, a youth rider can compete in their youth classes in addition to the rookie and non-pro divisions. It is important to encourage youth riders, but how do we continue to encourage adult riders that want to show yet have to compete against youth riders? The rookie classes really should be for beginners, and many of the youth riders are far from that. In addition, you can rapidly money out of rookie if you have one good show, and that leads to the limited non-pro which can be a very competitive class not really giving the rookie more time to learn. The limited non-pro gives much room to grow. The non-pro classes are really impressive as there are some extraordinary riders that are hard to classify as non-pros by their ability. Perhaps there should be a money level that puts them into the limited open classes and out of non-pro somewhat like if you win the futurity, you become an open competitor.

BrianTog

I think it is time to adopt some of the rules that the NCHA has regarding Non-Pro's. They obviously had these growing pains and resolved them by making a difference between Amateur and Non-Pro. For those who don't know, NCHA's Amateur definition is:

No person may compete in this class who has ridden, trained or assisted in training horses or horse riders, on horseback, for remuneration, directly or indirectly, nor may such a person's spouse, ex-spouse, relative of either living in the same household, or minor children. Any person who receives pay to work in any manner on the premises of a horse training operation shall also be ineligible as well as any person who has been granted apprentice trainer status. In addition, any person who has had or is currently involved in a spousal relationship with a horse trainer is ineligible for Amateur status in this Association...

For those who don't qualify for Amateur, there are the Non-Pro divisions. This is working very well and it is over due for the NRHA to adopt.

Vicki
Katy, TX

For the most part I think the Non Pro categories are relatively fair.

Although I would like to see a Non Pro "affiliated" class added...meaning if someone in your family is a trainer, you should be showing against others of the same, and not against actual non pro's whom "pay" for training, showing, and lessons from a trainer, and have to juggle family, work schedules, and friends just to find time to practice.

While l am not knocking these people in the least, and admire them as horsemen and their skills, I do feel that they have more opportunities then 75% of the Non Pro's, thus giving them a super advantage. For example by having the benefit of riding some of the top horses in training, past or present champions, and get help immediately and whenever they need it without having to compensate for it. You can tell me the affiliated family doesn't ride the horses in training but I will never believe it. Most affiliated individuals are supported with horse training monies, usually don't have outside jobs, giving them yet another advantage to allow for practice and riding time.

I feel there is enough affiliated people competing that by putting the protégés' of the family in their own category it would give the rest of us a chance at the real money.

Name withheld by request

Good question, I have not been showing actively lately and one of the reasons is that |I cannot compete with the non pros who have much more money to throw at their horse endeavors than I have available. When you train your own horses part time and work the rest of the time it's hard to compete against the person who can buy high dollar horses and then send them to the best trainers in the country. I'm not trying to take anything away from the folks that can do that but it's pretty tough when you show against someone who doesn't even warm up their own horse, the trainer does it all and they just get on and ride the pattern. I wish I had a solution but I haven't come up with one yet, except to ride in the open division against the trainers who at least are sometimes riding horses who are not quite all put together yet for the show pen.

Jim